Chapter 14 — St. Joseph’s Kilkenny

Allegations of sexual abuse in the 1970s

He did not link his sexual abuse at work with fostering children: You see those kind of things didn’t enter into one’s head at the time. Abuse wasn’t – I didn’t see it as abuse ... Well, the only thing I was to reassure myself was that it wouldn’t happen again, ever. That’s the assurance I had to give myself, in any other job, because I wasn’t going to let this happen again because I knew I wouldn’t survive a second one ... Yes, in a job situation. That I would never, ever cross the line again, you know, which I didn’t.

Mr Pleece subjected the two fostered boys to a horrific ordeal of sexual abuse once they had become teenagers, but he did not abuse again, according to himself, in his employment. In his Garda statement, he admitted to abusing the boys from when they were about 11 to 15 or 16.

The hostel in Cork closed down in 1979, and Mr Pleece was offered a job in the detention centre run by the Oblate Fathers in Lusk and for this he required references from previous employers. He gave St Joseph’s as a reference because he had asked Sr Astrid if there was going to be a problem with references before he left and he understood from her that he would be okay on that front. At the interview for Lusk he was asked why he resigned from St Joseph’s and explained it by saying he resigned to take a ‘year out’ from childcare.

He worked in Lusk until 1985, when it closed down, and then was out of work for a period until he took up another post in Ballymun, also in childcare. He worked there for two years. Then he worked in a home for children in Dublin as Assistant Manager, and was arrested while still employed there.

As well as the two boys he and his wife fostered, they also adopted two children. Again, they were subjected to a rigorous investigation process before the adoptions were sanctioned. His employment record would have been made available, but it is not clear whether any direct contact was made with St Joseph’s as to his suitability.

Dr Black worked for the Brothers of Charity in Belmont Park between 1972 and 1976, and his job at the time involved the assessment of children with behavioural problems. This work brought him in regular contact with St Joseph’s, Kilkenny, and he knew Sr Astrid well. He estimated that he would visit St Joseph’s about 15 times a year. He had no recollection of being asked by Sr Astrid to conduct an inquiry or try to find out why some of the boys in Summerhill were unhappy. The mode of inquiry that Thomas Pleece said had taken place would have taken much longer than an afternoon visit. He could not have questioned more than one or two boys in that space of time. As far as he was concerned, he never carried out this alleged investigation.

On the question of the more casual inquiry suggested by Sr Astrid, he said that he would not have used the phrase that she ‘had nothing to worry about’. He would have said that he could find no evidence of the alleged offence. In addition, Dr Black said that he would most likely have written a report, which he would have left in St Joseph’s.

Although he visited a number of residential schools during his time as a psychiatrist, Dr Black said that he had never had a complaint of physical or sexual abuse from any child ever. He said that this was not surprising to him, as he did not really get to know the children well enough for them to trust him.

Sr Astrid stated that she had no memory of a meeting with Richard Evans and Joe in which Thomas Pleece’s sexual abuse of the boys was raised. She remembered that Joe came to see her once or twice, but did not remember Mr Evans accompanying him. She did not disagree with Mr Evan’s recollection, as she believed he was an honest man, but she did not remember it herself.

Sr Astrid was asked if she made Thomas Pleece aware in 1976 that Joe had made allegations of a sexual nature against him, as stated by him in his Garda statement. She replied, ‘No, that never – I have no recollection of that’. Thomas Pleece also said that Dr Black was brought in to conduct an inquiry. She was asked if she had brought Dr Black in to carry out an inquiry. She replied: Dr Black came regularly to St Joseph’s, he was just on his way to the – he called regularly to see us in St Joseph’s, to see had we any problems and usually he saw some of the girls. At that particular time the lads were inclined to run away a bit and come back to me and tell me he was tormenting them or at them. Well, I said wouldn’t – now he was come at that particular time and I said would you have a chat with the boys and see how they are, have they any special reason for running away.

She agreed that a number of boys had complained to her that Thomas Pleece was ‘at them’, which she understood to mean beating them or punishing them. On the particular occasion when she dismissed Thomas Pleece, it was one boy who came. That boy was Simon. She was surprised by her use of the term ‘abuse’ in her Garda statement: ‘abusing is there, but at that stage I knew nothing about abuse, sex abuse; that’s the truth’.

She realised something was wrong, in the sense that she thought the beating was more than usual. Simon told her ‘we are not able to stick it’.

To the question why Thomas Pleece was asked to leave, she replied: Well, when Simon told me that day in the yard, you know, that it was very bad. “We can’t stick it,” I said, “Well I’ll have to go to Thomas Pleece myself”. I went to Thomas Pleece that very day myself and said to him “you can’t stay here any longer because the boys are very unhappy”.

Sr Astrid was asked how often she had spoken to Thomas Pleece about being too rough with the children before she had dismissed him. She said it happened a few times: You see I’d have to go over to him when the lads were run away or anything and they’d be coming to me. I’d have to go over and say " ... there is something wrong with this the lads shouldn’t be afraid of you and you shouldn’t be beating them". Then eventually he’d take them back, sure some of them wouldn’t even go back I would have to take them down to one of the houses. One particular lad, he said "I won’t go back to him now, Sister". I said, "all right, sure come on for a night or two but it will be harder on you then when you do go back." But after a few days talking to him and that I’d take him back.

Sr Astrid said that this had ‘probably happened a few times’ and remembered big groups of boys being involved.