Chapter 11 — Current circumstances

Occupational status

One hundred and seventy (170) of the 791 male and female witnesses (21%) reported being placed directly into live-in jobs, including with farmers, shopkeepers, hotels, hospitals, and members of religious orders, when they were discharged from the School system. Many of those witnesses described being paid a minimal rate, sometimes not regularly or at all and were allowed little more freedom than they had in the School system. The employment placements were generally either in the vicinity of the institution from which they had been discharged or in Dublin. As reported previously, 27 witnesses reported being physically and sexually abused by their employers and by others in the context of their work setting in the years immediately following their discharge. In several instances the abuse was described as continuing over a long period of time. The witnesses routinely reported that they felt powerless to protect themselves and stop the abuse.

Thirty eight (38) male witnesses reported being sent to work for farmers when they were discharged from a School. Thirteen (13) male witnesses reported being treated as family members and although they worked hard were happy to do so in exchange for the kindness they experienced. At the time of the hearings four witnesses were still living, or in regular contact, with the family they had been sent to many years previously. Less positive accounts were also heard of witnesses being ‘treated like slaves’, made to sleep in out-houses, eat meals separately from the employer’s family, sometimes outside the house, and were expected to wash in the yard or out-houses. Witnesses who had spent many years in an institution reported the experience of living and working with a family as alien and that they did not know how to behave or understand what was expected of them. A number reported that they worked hard but did not have an aptitude for farm work; others enjoyed the work to which they had become accustomed while in the Schools.

Twenty nine (29) male witnesses reported being placed by the School in trades; for seven of the witnesses these work placements developed into ongoing careers. The jobs were reported to draw on the trade skills acquired in the Industrial School. Tailoring was the most frequently reported trade, with 15 witness reports of being placed in jobs in the clothing industry. Nine (9) witnesses reported being placed in the shoemaking industry; five others reported being sent to work as bakers and carpenters.

Nine (9) male witnesses reported making careers in the music industry following their experience in the School bands. Some of the witnesses became professional musicians; others were music teachers or involved in related careers. Music was reported to be an important part of the lives of most of those witnesses and an acknowledged positive outcome of their experience in the institution. I done a bit of music and a bit of folk singing in sessions, there was a lot of drink around too, then I done drugs. I overdosed...Then things came right, my head got clear and things came right in the music.

Seventy one (71) male witnesses joined either the Irish Defence Forces or overseas armies at some time during their life. Many witnesses described the Army as providing security, shelter and a structured regime in addition to career opportunities and the possibility of travel. Twenty-two (22) male witnesses had substantial and positive careers in the Army, 10 of whom spent the majority of their working lives there. The Army was another way, a lot of the lads joined the Army. It was the same as...named School...but you got paid for it. You had the rules and regulations, you had punishment but you got paid.

Sixty one (61) male witnesses were unemployed at the time of their hearing, 46 of whom had been unemployed for more than 20 years.

One hundred and three (103) female witnesses (27%) reported being sent to work for families or religious congregations on a live-in basis when they were discharged from the Schools. Forty six (46) of these witnesses reported being placed in these positions without any prior discussion. As with the male witnesses, female witnesses had routinely never met their new ‘employer’ before the day they were collected, sent or brought to their new place of employment. Witnesses who were sent to work for religious congregations became live-in housekeepers or cleaners in hospitals, Schools, boarding schools, presbyteries, nursing homes and laundries. The majority of witnesses reported that these work placements were like an extension of their experience in the Schools, with less abuse. The accounts of such placements were varied. Approximately a third of the witness reports were positive in that the families, nuns and clergy employing them were kind and treated the witnesses well. A number of witnesses reported that their employers encouraged them to socialise and, over time, helped them to pursue further education or training, for example doing commercial courses or nursing training. Fifteen (15) female witnesses reported maintaining contact with these initial employers up to the present day.

Another 163 female witnesses (43%) reported that following their discharge they found themselves jobs in domestic situations for the first couple of years. At least half of the female witnesses who were employed in domestic service in the early years after their discharge remained in similar occupations for the rest of their working lives, either on a live-in basis as priest’s housekeepers, hospital domestics, nannies and housekeepers or as cooks, cleaners, laundry workers, seamstresses and care attendants. Many witnesses stated that they were trained primarily to clean and, as a result, have been much in demand as housekeepers and cleaners.

Female witnesses discharged since the 1970s increasingly reported being placed in clerical and other positions, for which some had received secretarial training in the School. Thirty two (32) female witnesses reported having trained as nurses, mainly in the UK. Those female witnesses who were not initially employed in domestic or clerical occupations reported being occupied in a variety of areas including a number who returned home and assisted their mothers in caring for younger brothers and sisters.

One hundred and ninety six (196) witnesses, 102 female and 94 male, described chaotic work lives; many were periodically employed but were unable to stay in the same job for long. The majority of the female witnesses who were casually employed reported working as housekeepers, waitresses, cleaners and factory workers, while the male witnesses in this category worked as construction workers, farm labourers, taxi drivers and factory workers. All cited their lack of education and poor literacy skills as impediments to a more stable work life.

Male and female witnesses also described the difficulty they experienced getting on with work colleagues and dealing with work place authority. Male witnesses reported that the lack of education, the effects of alcohol abuse, aggressive behaviour, lack of trust and poor self-esteem had a negative influence on their work lives. Female witnesses frequently reported that in addition to their lack of education, a fear of authority and of making mistakes led them to avoid positions of responsibility in the work place and deterred them from seeking promotion; a number of male witnesses also reported this experience. Many male and female witnesses said that their experiences in the School system left them with a tendency to be excessively anxious and suspicious, creating subsequent difficulties in both their work and home lives. When I started work it was tough. If someone came in to the restroom I would run in to the loo and lock myself in, I was terrified in case they spoke to me....I feel so stupid at work,...they do...(record)... minutes and everybody takes turns...I was going to say to them “I’m not good at that” but I thought they’d ask “why?” • If anyone annoys me I start a row. I have to be on my own, I can’t get on with people. I have done every job under the sun. I’ve worked hard but move a lot. It’s hard to trust anyone and I was unpredictable. • In England I would love to have been on the buses ...(working on the buses).... But, I couldn’t fill in forms.... Even when you went out with a boyfriend you thought you weren’t good enough for him, you weren’t good enough for anyone really. You were with friends but they were better than you. ... The girls that you were with you’d always be afraid you’d let something slip, in case they’d say “oh she came from ...named School...”. But in England there was no one watching you, no one knows anything about me. ...(I was)... always told by nuns “you are the rubbish of Ireland”. ... In England nobody knows me....

Thirty one (31) male and female witnesses reported being unable to sustain regular employment as a result of serious mental health difficulties.

It is of note that 56 female witnesses were in non-manual occupations compared with 29 male witnesses. Twenty two (22) female witnesses and seven male witnesses reported having completed university degrees as mature students and were in different professional occupations. Twenty five (25) witnesses, 16 male and nine female, were employed in senior managerial or skilled technical occupations for which they had received specialised training. I left here... (Ireland)... because of...(discrimination)...I was frustrated with Ireland. I said “to hell with this, I’m getting out of this country”. I went to ...(university abroad)... I have never been unemployed... I put Ireland behind.

Eleven (11) witnesses, six male and five female, reported that they joined religious communities when they were discharged from the Schools. The majority of these witnesses reported they left the communities before completing their training.

Reports of long-term unemployment among male witnesses were associated with reports of time spent in prison. Fifty nine (59) male witnesses (14%) reported having spent time in prison in either Ireland or the UK, and a number in both jurisdictions, since their discharge from the School system. In most instances the first period of detention was within five years of being discharged, and this experience established a pattern followed for life for many of the witnesses. Larceny, public order offences, serious assault, grievous harm and other criminal offences were reasons given by a number of witnesses for their prison sentence. Three (3) male witnesses reported being charged with the sexual abuse of minors.