120 entries for Witness Testimony

Another ex-resident, who used to receive occasional visits from his older sister, recounted a story that had left a lasting impression: My sister ... came to visit me there once and we were going through the School and passed by the kitchen and the kitchen door was open. There was an old nun at the sink and I remember [my sister] asking me if I wanted a drink of water. I said I would love one. She asked the nun, I couldn’t believe she had the nerve to ask the nun for a drink. The nun came over and asked if I would rather have a glass of milk instead of water. I couldn’t believe that she would ask me if I wanted a glass of milk. I thought that was the greatest thing ever. It’s the only time I ever remember getting a glass of milk.

Although he had no memory of the food he got in St Patrick’s: ‘That glass of milk sticks out like anything’.

This complainant said that the children were afraid to ask for a glass of water in the summertime. He said that they would get water out of the toilet cistern rather than ask for it: The cistern is the part up top that stores the water and you pull the chain, it had a chain on it. There was four or five cubicles with a partition between each. I can’t remember exactly how many cubicles there were or how many toilets there were. The cubicles did not reach the wall and we used to – two of us, one would stand on the toilet and the other would give us a lift up and we would sit on that partition wall and lean across and scoop the water into our mouth from the cistern. I would get down then and give him a hand to get up to get the water out.

When asked why he did not ask for a glass of water, he explained: You dare not ask, you just did not ask for things in that School ... There used to be buckets of water taken out by this man, I remember, but it wasn’t often enough.

A subsequent occasion, when the witness was in another industrial school, illustrated the relationship he had with the nuns in St Patrick’s: Guinness put on a show at Christmas time and boys from the schools were asked to either do something on stage for entertainment for everyone. I was learning how to Gaelic dance at the time so a Christian Brother asked me if I’d do some dancing so I did. When I got back to my seat I turned around and there was two nuns I remembered from Kilkenny coming towards me. My first reaction was "what the hell have I done now?" They came over and just asked me how I was. They were a bit disappointed that I danced and didn’t sing and that was all. I was glad that was all was the problem.

When he saw the nuns coming towards him, he assumed he was going to be punished for something.

The fact that the complainants had all been in St Patrick’s as very young children meant that, although they had specific memories, they did not recall general conditions in the School. From the documentation, St Patrick’s appeared to be a well-run institution.

In the first record of a General Inspection, dated 22nd April 1939, Dr Anna McCabe visited the School and found the children well cared for and well looked after. There was plenty of good quality food and the children were well clothed.

In September 1940, the Bishop of Ossory, Bishop Patrick Collier, wrote to the Kilkenny Journal in support of an appeal by the Sisters for charitable funding from the people of the diocese. In that letter, he spelled out very clearly the high regard he had for the work of the Sisters: Without looking for a penny for themselves, these devoted Religious give their time and talents to their little Charges with a loving care surpassing that of natural parents. It is only just and right that their lives should be kept free from the nightmare of want, and the constant fight to pay their way.

The Bishop directed that his letter, together with a letter from the Reverend Mother, should be read at all masses. The Reverend Mother’s letter was also printed by the newspaper. She explained that St Patrick’s had 186 children aged between one and 10. Out of this, only 135 were in receipt of the full State grant of 12 shillings per week. Another 27 were aged between four and six, and were paid for at a rate of 10 shillings per week. In addition, the School had about 24 children under four years of age, for whom the Government did not pay any grant: These we admit when our room allows, to save them from destitution and the dangers of Proselytism.

The large number of additional children put a strain on the finances. Industrial schools were not intended for babies but this was a time of great poverty in Ireland and clearly the Sisters were faced with hard choices. The choices made impacted on the level of care available to the children who had been committed by the courts and in respect of whom funding was made available by the State. It was the children as well as the Sisters who made the sacrifices for the babies taken in by St Patrick’s.

The next record of a General Inspection was on 10th December 1943, over four years later. Although it referred to a previous inspection dated 29th November 1942, no record of Dr McCabe’s findings in 1942 have survived. She described the School as well conducted, clean and the children well cared for. Her next inspection was dated 5th July 1944, and she requested that the supply of milk to each child be increased to one pint per head per day, and butter to be increased to 6 ozs. She was concerned about the lack of an external fire escape.8 She also drew attention to the fact that the children were barefoot in the playground.

On 19th July 1944, the Department wrote to the Resident Manager pointing out that, although the School continued to be well conducted and the children generally were well cared for, they were not putting on sufficient weight: He is concerned, however, to note that a number of them have not been putting on weight at the normal rate. It is essential that each child should receive a minimum of one pint of milk per day and should be allowed the full butter ration of six ounces per week, and I am to request you to make the necessary arrangements to have this done.

It requested that the practice of allowing children go barefoot should be discontinued. Each child was also to be supplied with a toothbrush.

This letter appears to have called into question the suitability of the Resident Manager because, two months later, it was proposed to replace her with a Sister who was 66 years old. The Department wrote to Dr McCabe seeking her views on the suitability of this appointment. Dr McCabe replied that: I am not in favour of appointing as Resident Manager old or elderly women as they are too set in their ways and are very difficult to deal with regarding new changes and innovations.