2,143 entries for Witness Testimony

She continued: it wasn’t extraordinary at that time, it wasn’t extraordinary that I did not know about Peter Tade. It wasn’t extraordinary at all. It was normal. When it came to our works and this was about work, this was about Sr Astrid area of work. When it came to our works I may as well have been living in Kerry as living in St Joseph’s. That’s reality.

Sr Astrid recalled another bizarre incident. Some time around 1966 or 1967, young deacons from St Kieran’s College came to St Joseph’s to help with the children. A year or two later, towards the end of the 1960s, some of these students came to Summerhill to supervise the boys at night time. She was told that the students, she believed there were four involved, and the boys in Summerhill were running around naked. She did not see it herself but told the Garda about it. He reported it to the President of St Kieran’s, who in turn informed the Dean of Students. She said that she herself spoke to the President of the college about the incident, and the students did not return to St Joseph’s after that. She did not mention this incident to anyone and none of the children made any complaints. Sr Astrid commented that, although she did not think that there was any question of sexual abuse in this incident, she was sufficiently worried to speak to the Garda and to discuss it with the President of the College: But I didn’t, you see the trouble with me was I didn’t know about sexual abuse, you see. That was the trouble with me.

He concluded this report by stating: I would state that the Manager has a very serious communication problem with the staff in the group homes. There would seemingly be a lack of information at all levels being exchanged and I would have to raise questions about this matter. I did discuss it with the Manager and I came to the conclusion that it has been a perennial problem, as far as I am concerned. It has always been extremely difficult to obtain the facts about Kilkenny, due to the defensive protective air around the centre. Nevertheless, one has to consistently maintain a working relationship with the manager and centre even at times that may be extremely difficult.

On 21st April 1952, Sr McEvoy, Prioress of St Mary’s wrote to the Department of Education seeking recognition as a special school. She insisted that due to the nature of deafness small class sizes were necessary and that ‘there can be no mass teaching of deaf children, each child has her own separate problem’. She felt that 10 to a class would be ideal but ‘twelve may be allowed under stress’. Sr McEvoy also emphasised the importance of speaking: Another point of difference is the fact that it is a residential school. The time spent outside class – play, meals, etc. – is as important for the education of these children as the time spent in class; our’s is now an up-to-date oral school and in consequence the children must be kept speaking at all times, and not allowed to use sign language. This work is done by a qualified matron. She would have to be included in the recognised staff, as well as a Principal and a Vice Principal.

In their respondent statements, the Dominican Sisters stated the following in general terms: They accepted that corporal punishment was used but denied that children were ‘beaten’. They stated that Oralism was the preferred option from 1947 and that signing was discouraged. They denied that a child was physically punished for signing but accepted that a child may have been slapped if they persisted. They did not respond to specific allegations of abuse against individuals due to the passage of time which they contended made it prejudicial to them.

The following quotations illustrate the reasons stated by witnesses for giving evidence to the Committee: I think I wanted someone to listen to me, nobody ever listened to us, nobody ever asked us how we were feeling. When our mother died we were never spoken to, we cried for a reason, nobody ever asked why, nobody ever said “if you have a problem come to me”. We did not know how to post a letter or buy a loaf of bread ...(after discharge)... I wanted to be heard really. • They all said “that couldn’t have happened” but they can’t say that to 5000 of us when we all have a similar story to tell. • For all the children who died in care and cannot speak for themselves. Listening to fellows being flogged ... I just wanted to forget them but I couldn’t forget them ... fellows were being told not to tell their parents. I’m not interested in any compensation but there should be some official record of what happened. The most important thing is that disabled children would be educated without abuse being done to them. • Lots of others would love to come to tell their story but they can’t because their lives are destroyed with drink and drugs and everything. My story is their story too. • I know many of the others are not around to tell. To protect kids, give a double look at the guy you think is such a great guy, who offers to do things with kids, who is supposed to be a lover of kids or whatever, where you think he seems to be a sports man ... look again, because, once a kid is sent down the wrong way it seems to live with them for ever. There is a ... wall of silence that no one knows unless you are within the School. You need to bring things in to protect the kids. • I blame the Government, they gave the religious orders the power, they should have come and checked you, if it was monitored they wouldn’t have the power to do what they did.... Is anyone ever going to listen? I had to prove myself, everyone is entitled to have their say and now ... after today ... I will just burn it ...(supporting documents)... in front of me, I’ll finish it. • I knew 7 people who in a space of 6 months after leaving ...named School... committed suicide. ... I know an awful lot of people who just cannot come forward to this day, an awful lot are dead. • I wanted to see if there is something good that can come from it, that what happened will be made public in print. When I started there was nothing about money, nothing at all about money, it’s not money. All I want is justice. ... What could you do with money? • I am here today because I am not a number, I am a human being. • Why ...(come forward)...? How come I am feeling this 50 or 60 years on? How come someone didn’t come and ... do something about it, say “are you alright?” I grew up so emotionally bruised and battered, psychologically I couldn’t do anything. I wanted someone to tell me why it happened. From 0 till 18 I was a figure under section something ...(Children Act, 1908).... Initially I wanted to confront somebody from that bloody School and say “why did you do that to me?” • So that there will be a report which will advise social workers to monitor children in care more closely. • To record abuse, perhaps it will go some way towards stopping the belief that children won’t remember. • I want people to know it was not safe for children in those Schools.... It was a School from hell, they were dangerous people. I will never forgive them, there were people in charge they done nothing about it, you were under lock and key, you got the life kicked out of you and no one does anything about it. • It’s a must ... you were allotted to listen to me, it’s going to close a chapter in my life and I’m happy to release it all. • No one was prepared to stand-up, the government allowed the religious institutions to care for children, it was out of their hands. The religious just did not know how to cope, they had no background whatsoever in childcare. • We have been quiet long enough. • It’s a report for social workers, to monitor more carefully, there should have been monitoring. If there had been more outsiders coming into the School, you know you would have got to know them. Letting the children know that they have someone to talk to, if they have a problem and ... someone you could trust outside, they would have to be outside, a separate thing from the School. If I had someone to talk to, separate, that I could trust ... it would have helped me. It has been a great help to talk about it. • I feel that nobody listened to us as children, and thank God someone is listening to us now.

There were 18 junior and senior boys Schools named in evidence to the Committee. The junior Schools admitted boys up to the age of 10 years and were all managed by religious Sisters. Boys were generally transferred to senior boys Schools when they were 10 years old. However evidence was heard of boys being transferred to senior Schools as young as eight years of age and of boys younger than 10 years being placed directly in senior Schools. These Schools were managed by Brothers and/or priests and, with some variations, admitted boys between the ages of 10 and 16 years.

One hundred and forty (140) witnesses (18%), 75 male and 65 female, reported the death of one or both parents as a significant factor in their admission to a School. Of those, the mother’s death preceded admission in 82 instances and father’s death preceded admission in 49 instances. Death of both parents was reported as a reason for admission in nine instances. The main known causes of death reported by male and female witnesses were tuberculosis, mother’s death in childbirth, cancer and heart disease. My father died, my mother had 8 of us. She went to the parish priest, she was friendly with him, and he said “put them into an orphanage until you get yourself sorted out in your new home”. So she went to the Court, she was looking for a pound, that’s all she wanted, a pound a week. But they threw her out of Court and put us into Schools, all except the youngest of us.

Fifty four (54) witnesses, 19 male and 35 female, reported chronic illness and hospitalisation of a parent as the main contributing factor in their admission. Twenty six (26) witnesses reported that their mothers were in psychiatric hospitals and five others reported that their fathers had psychiatric illnesses. Ten (10) witnesses reported that one of their parents had tuberculosis and the remaining parent was unable to cope alone, resulting in the more dependant children being admitted to an Industrial School. Other witnesses reported that both parents had tuberculosis. Mum had TB, my father couldn’t look after us ... he was an alcoholic. I was put in by Court Order ...(with consent of parents).... My sisters joined me, except my eldest sister, she stayed with my Nan.... I have no recollection because I was only 18 months ...(old)... going there. Basically from what my sister told me I know it was 3 or 4 months after me that they came in. All my mam’s family had died of TB, she was the only one that survived, basically she was on her own. I saw my father once, I remember him coming up one Christmas. I didn’t know I had brothers until ...(later years).... • Seven of us went into institutions. The baby she ...(mother)... kept and an older sister as well. The house was examined, it was in very poor circumstance. I have a letter from the sergeant ...displayed copy of correspondence and garda report.... My father had a disability. I remember it ...(admission)... distinctly. I was going in ... I was sitting on my mother’s lap, she left me and she didn’t come back and get me. ... She didn’t visit until I was 5, I didn’t recognise her as my mother. • They brought us to the Court. I remember my father screaming ...distressed... he was a good father. I remember him playing with us, he was a good man, he’d play with me and my sister, he did not want us to go. I remember the love my parents had for me, they were poor and my mother was another religion. Thirty two (32) witnesses, 21 male and 11 female, reported being admitted to a School following family disruption through parental separation, cohabitation or as a result of extra marital relationships. Twenty seven (27) witnesses, 10 male and 17 female, reported that their parents, 20 fathers and seven mothers either were or had also been in prison. Five (5) witnesses, two male and three female, reported being admitted to a School because of familial sexual abuse. Sixty five (65) witnesses, 57 male and eight female, stated that they have not been able to determine the circumstances of their admission to institutional care.

Witnesses who had been in care since birth were too young at the time to recall what happened to them. ‘I don’t know why I was there, where I was before, who sent me there ... no idea what happened.’ Others were unclear about the detail of their family circumstances but remembered being admitted to out-of-home care with their brothers and sisters and at times being visited by relatives. A number of these witnesses learned subsequently that they had lived with their parents and/or relatives for some time before being admitted to care, but had no sense of being part of a family network while they were in the School system. Many other witnesses had clear memories of living with their parents or with their relatives before their admission and maintained contact with their family throughout their time in institutional care.

Six hundred and eighty four (684) witnesses (86%) reported having siblings, of whom 256 male (62%) and 270 female (71%), reported having brothers and/or sisters who were also in out-of-home care. A further 59 witnesses reported they did not know enough about their family circumstances to know whether or not they had siblings in care. The Committee heard evidence that 2,275 children were placed in out-of-home care from the families of these witnesses. Most, but not all, of those children were placed in Industrial Schools. A number were also placed in Children’s Homes, foster homes and other institutions.

The most common pattern reported by witnesses admitted as part of a family group was of being taken to Court along with their siblings and from there being transferred to one or more Schools. Admissions of family groups generally occurred in the context of a family crisis or intervention in circumstances of illness, poverty or neglect. Most often siblings were reported to be separated, younger boys being sent to junior or mixed Industrial Schools and the girls were admitted to girls Schools. Boys over the age of 10 years were admitted to senior boys Schools. My first memory ... I was taken to ...named School... with my sisters in the car. ...(I was)... 4 years. ... I did observe the garda car turning into the ...named girls School... and I knew then that was where my sisters were going. My youngest brother stayed with my grandmother, we lived within a stones throw of the School. I started crying for my sisters and got a slap across the face, that was my first experience of ...named School.... • I didn’t know I had sisters until I was over 10 or so ... I wasn’t even told they ...(X and Y)... were my sisters, I thought they were just other girls that were in there like me. I didn’t know I had a brother. I was 2 when I went in there, he was in ...named boys School... When he was 16 he came to see us. ... I couldn’t believe I had a brother, there was no bond there....

Six hundred and eighty four (684) witnesses (86%) reported having siblings and 374 of those witnesses (47%) reported having little or no contact with any family members during their time in the Schools. As non-marital children many of those witnesses would, effectively, have had no known extended family communicating with them. I’d just like to say that the worst thing you can do to any family is separate them. The State robbed me of my childhood and my brothers and sisters. It was bad enough to be taken away from my mother and father but terrible to be taken away from my brothers and sisters.

One hundred and ninety two (192) witnesses (28%) who had siblings, 102 male and 90 female, reported losing contact with their brothers and sisters following placement in the Schools. Additionally, a number of witnesses who were non-marital children were totally unaware that they also had siblings in care. Forty three (43) witnesses, 29 male and 14 female, reported being unaware that siblings were placed with them in the same School at the time. This information was only revealed to them in later years when contact was re-established. Other witnesses reported knowing they had brothers or sisters in the same School but had little contact with them due to the regimented nature of everyday life. With few exceptions, witnesses reported that no perceivable attempt was made by the authorities to promote family contact between siblings in the gender-segregated School system in the period prior to 1970. ‘If the nuns had a Feast Day then we were all allowed sit together, all my sisters. That was the only time.’ When my father died, my mother ... looked after us, but she worked. ... We were taken to ...named School... we were separated, my brother clung to me, I didn’t know where he went. Suddenly after all the years I met my sister ... we were in the same School, they would not let us see her. About four years after I left I got to meet her. My brother was there ...(in the same School)... but we didn’t interact ever as brother and sister, we weren’t together. • I was shocked ... that was the first time I knew I had an elder brother. ... I had an inclination that I had sisters because of the situation on the beach. We wouldn’t be allowed to cross to see them....Our orphanages was brought to ...named... beach and ...residents from girls School... would have been brought down the same day, but they were kept over there ...(indicating a line in the sand).... They were there and the next thing you hear “that’s my brother ...X... over there”. I remember ...named sibling... saying it. But you weren’t allowed have the conversation, you could look across the beach and that was it, there was a line you know ... “thou shall not pass”. That line is still there, by the way, we ...(siblings)... find it hard ...(to communicate)... from lack of ... contact as children. • The only way I knew I had a brother was they used to serve Mass on a Sunday morning and that was our only chance of getting to see them. We would all see them, but they were not allowed speak to us. We were proud of them, one was very handsome.... Later when they were older they were allowed over on a Sunday but they were not allowed in, they had to stand at the door, we could talk to them there. Usually visitors were allowed into the parlour, they weren’t.

Three hundred and seventy six (376) witnesses (48%), 173 male (42%) and 203 female (54%), reported that contact had been maintained with and by their family for the duration of their stay in the School. Witnesses reported that the most typical opportunities for contact with their siblings, parents and relatives existed through informal visiting arrangements, on monthly visiting Sundays, visits home and to relatives during school holidays, letters and parcels sent by parents and relatives and occasional phone calls. Witnesses from some Schools were allowed to go home for weekends if they lived nearby. Visits and other forms of contact were treated as privileges and could be withheld for a variety of reasons. I got sent away for mitching from school. ... I did not get harmed there, but I never got home for the 5 years ...(of admission).... I was due to go home once but I broke a window with a football and the Brothers would not let me home. • My mother came down to visit me and she was not allowed in because I was all bruised, she had to wait outside while all the others ...(visitors)... were in.