2,143 entries for Witness Testimony

Mr Black also confirmed that he had not asked whether Fr Stefano had reported the matter to the Gardaí. He explained: If I was doing it today – hindsight is grand, of course – the first thing I would have said is “Have you reported that to the Guards?” That is the first thing I would have said to Fr Stefano. Secondly I would have taken a note, even if only to protect myself. So, mea culpa.

When asked why this procedure was not set in motion in relation to the complaint against Br Bruno, Mr Black replied: Because the thing was finished, the crime was solved, the culprit was on his way off ... What more could I do at that time? I should have now have told the Guards, of course, you know, because it was a crime, but it wasn’t regarded in that light at that time.

The Department’s Child Care Advisor, gave evidence that he became aware of Br Bruno’s dismissal, shortly after it occurred, through a phone call from Fr Stefano: To the best of my knowledge, I then reported that to Mr Black, .... who I think already knew of the issue, and he said that he would be dealing with the matter or to leave it with him at that stage.

He was asked what procedures were in place to deal with information received in this way: To record it and to consult with the managers, to make certain it is all on record ... If the Secretary had been informed, you would obviously go back and keep him updated of where you were with that situation. You would then consult with the Order as to where they were with the situation. Because they have ultimate responsibility for – and I think there was, as far as possible, good communication.

It was put to him that one would expect the matter to go on record, and the record to go on file, because that is the way the Department worked and he responded: Yes. I expect there was a file in the Department, because when I am listening to the Chairman, my mind is thinking of – not an incident like that, but there was an incident of a fire in Cavan many years ago and I know that incident is on a file. So that’s the same sort of major incident we are talking of really.

He added that he did not report the matter to the Gardaí: I certainly didn’t inform the guards, as Mr Black was dealing with that situation and he said to me, "leave it with me". I left it with him. Maybe on hindsight that was wrong.

The position of the Department of Education in relation to the investigation and reporting of abuse is set out in its document, ‘Statement to Commission To Inquire Into Child Abuse’ dated 19th May 2006 and prepared in advance of the Phase III hearings. It states: In detailing the allegations of abuse in Clonmel and the response of the Department, it is worth noting the Department’s position with regard to dealing with allegations of this nature was that the Department does not investigate allegations of abuse. This is a matter for the employers of the staff (in the case of St Joseph’s this would be the Rosminian Order), the Gardai and the health authorities. The responsibility of the Department would be to ensure that the welfare and safety of children was protected and that the matter had been reported to the appropriate authorities and that appropriate steps were being taken to investigate the matter and protection of children.

The Department’s TN030 file was discovered to the Investigation Committee by the Department of Education. It had not been among the other documents disclosed earlier because it was an ongoing file, and was not in the archive, but among the files of senior Department staff. As Mr Black, former Principal Officer, told the Committee: They had in that Section in the Primary Branch, they had a safe for confidential files ... any offences with a suggestion of a sexual offence in them were kept there. I asked the girls about this thing ... one girl I knew in the section, “Did you ever remember any cases like this?” “Oh no, we wouldn’t see them at all.” They never went down. There was a rule at one time that girls were not to see any things like that, they were very sensitive creatures.

On 29th November 1995, Fr Stefano met with Mr Grey, this time in relation to Br Bruno. At this stage, he also contacted the Garda Superintendent in Clonmel, to inform him of his 1979 discovery of Br Bruno’s activities and of the allegation of sexual abuse being made against Fr Valerio. In his undated statement furnished to the Commission, Fr Stefano put into context how this came about: I was serving as Provincial of the Irish Province of the Rosminians. The Protocol on Child Sexual Abuse was being developed by the Hierarchy and CORI. As we reviewed the Draft Document we decided that we should once again report these matters. Accompanied by Fr Vito44 I first travelled to the Department of Education, Athlone and reported the matter again to the then Principal Officer, Mr Grey and, in the afternoon of the same day, reported the matter to the Garda Superintendent at Clonmel Garda Station.

A senior member of the Rosminian Order told the Investigation Committee: That’s my belief that every child that was ever in this situation was abused in some way, emotionally, physically or whatever the case may be and you would say that we were part of that because we didn’t stand up at the time and probably say so.

A senior Brother, who served as a Prefect in Ferryhouse in the 1960s, explained how the presence of orphans and delinquents was a major problem in the institutions: Well, you see, after all, I remember somebody saying to me that it was a good thing for the orphans to be exposed to the delinquents, that could make no absolute sense to me whatsoever ... there is an example of what I’m speaking about, of all the children being lumped together in one recreational facility, you see. You’re coming from different places, orphans are coming from different places. Orphans needed entirely different treatment to delinquents.

It was put to him that the orphans came from broken homes, or homes where parents were ill or dying, or dead, and their need was for another family, for love and affection, and gentle guidance by example, but the delinquents were sent there by the courts, and their need was for control. They had families and homes, and wanted to return, whereas the orphans had no other home. The real problem was trying to administer a system which was treating both the same. Inevitably, it would become more a kind of prison for delinquents than a surrogate family home for children with emotional needs. The Brother replied: The system couldn’t work any other way, that’s the bottom line. I’m saying that that was the sad point about it. That it had to deal with the most belligerent if you like, if you like to put it that way. That there was no escape from it.

In the 1940s, because of the Emergency, there was a period of deprivation and food shortage. One witness described the bitter cold they had to endure: There was a big freeze up and the children, including myself, we got chilblains between our fingers, on our fingers, on our toes and they swelled up. Some poor kid – they burst and the cold was bad enough, but the pain from those things when they burst made it ten times worse ... At no time were they put in any place warm, they were put in that old recreational place beneath the classrooms. There was a doorway but no door on it ... The Prefects would tell them to keep moving, they wouldn’t let them stand still; keep on moving to try to get the circulation going.

This witness was lucky, in that he was given a job in the kitchen, where there was warmth and more food. He explained: Naturally I could eat more than the other kids because I was cooking it ... I was protecting myself, they could not protect themselves ... I have a lot of feeling for those little children. I didn’t suffer half as much as a lot of them did. Don’t forget they were hungry, not just for the six months I was hungry, some of them were there nine or ten years, they were hungry every day for nine or ten years.

Fr Antonio described the refectory as follows: One of the earliest nightmares you would have was being in charge of the refectory because you knew the food wasn’t good and even the tables were coming to the sides and they used to use what they called hods, which was plastic bowls and plates and stuff like that. It was – nearly I would regret an awful lot, hindsight is a great thing but at that time it was a very cruel situation. And because there was only one person in charge of the 150 there would have been a lot of bullying ... I remember one occasion where the older boys were kind of selling slices of bread, which they used to call “skinners” to other lads. “I will give you a slice of bread for two sausages”.